2.1 Are the befits included in the limitation on temporary disability? court opinions. They were so pleasant and knowledgeable when I contacted them. It does not apply to other personnel such as telephone operators, clerks, stenographers, machinists, mechanics, or people whose functions do not fall within the scope of active law enforcement service.4, A police officer is entitled to one year of full salary 4850 benefits if he or she is unable to work due to a work injury.5. Play the video to find out. The doctor said that some portion of his heart injury existed prior to Glen becoming a police officer. Average of Three-year (36 months) final compensation. Because she is a police officer she is eligible for 4850 benefits. For this reason, normalizing pensions to full-career equivalents is necessary. 2013-004 (April 24, 2012); Texas Atty. In aggregate these distinctions are not relevant. [xxi] Specifically, AB 703 amends Section 26300(c) of the Penal Code to include retired reserve peace officers as persons entitled to retirement identification certificates and carrying concealed firearm endorsements, so long as they meet certain conditions. Often these regular contributions were missed because the pension funds themselves waived the requirement during years when the investment markets were delivering excellent returns. gist specializing in police stress, states that a failure to Become familiar with the information in the . Also as already seen, the amounts go up for post-1999 retirees, although the variation isnt nearly as striking with the LAFPP data compared with the CalSTRS and San Jose data. If you are under age 50, You can apply for a non-industrial disability retirement with CalPERS, which will pay you 2% of your salary for every year of service/. Unfortunately, among the three pension systems being analyzed, only the Los Angeles Fire and Police Pension system provided this data. Seek the advice of an attorney before acting or relying upon any information in this communication. If the employee became a member on or after January 1, 2013, they must be at least 52 years old to retire. In all cases, the amounts reported are the average pension paid last year. Receives application, forwards to CalPERS. (2000) 85 Cal. In any case, public safety retirees, on average, collect the largest pensions of any class of state or local government employees in California. Finally, the data from the LAFPP is for the 2013 calendar year. We lobby for our members to ensure benefits are not lost. [xxiii] Second, the retired reserve officer must have served the minimum aggregate amount of time as specified by agency policy as a level I reserve officer, provided that the agency term requirement is not less than 10 years or more than 20 years. All rights reserved. ProvidesERL all supporting medical substantiation along with the employees current duty statement. Then you are unemployed, with no prospects for the future. Your agency must meet the definition of a "public agency" as defined in the California Public Employees' Retirement Law (Sections 20056-20057). Most pension plans offer health insurance coverage of significant value, supplemental payments, annuities, or payments associated with DROP (deferred retirement option plan) that are not reflected in the base pension amount. During the time they continue to work, they collect their normal pay, but the amount they would have been collecting as a pension is deposited in an account bearing 5% interest. Appeals Bd. Law enforcement officers (LEOs) often face extreme pressure and stress that can take a toll over time. Notifies the Employee ResourceLiaison (ERL) when an employee files for disability retirement. At least 9,000 public employees earn almost double the median income every year of their retirement. Free Newsletters To provide thebest insurance options available for our members. As benefits are paid every two weeks, she is paid $3,000 every two weeks. For all public safety participants retiring before 1999 with at least 20 years service, the average base pension is $52,179; for all participants retiring in 1999 or later, with at least 20 years service, the average base pension is $77,878. To-date, pension reforms have only affected the benefit formulas earned by new employees, not existing employees. After the Board meeting, the General Membership meeting began. Officers may select from numerous health care plans, the plan that best meets their needs. View Previous Versions of the California Code. If the employee waives disability retirement, you can medically terminate his/her employment. This is due to the special rules for police officers indicated above. Public agencies are required to contribute a percentage of the total member payroll as determined by an actuarial valuation. It looks like your browser does not have JavaScript enabled. Robert Fellner is a researcher at the Nevada Policy Research Institute (NPRI) and joined the Institute in December 2013. Ct. App. RPOAC membersmustbe members of FOP to be eligible for the benefits offered. They no longer accrue pension benefits. Field Training Officers earn an additional 5% of their daily base pay each day they serve as an FTO. The table below only shows base pension because the San Jose Police and Fire Retirement Plan did not release information on health benefits or any other potential supplemental benefits. Similarly, it is important to show pension benefits for employees who worked full careers, since this, again, is the only way to help foster accurate insight into how much pensions cost. For many retirees, however, retirement turns out to be less pleasant than they expected. Permanent disability is when your condition is not going to change, and you have a permanent loss of ability. The horizontal axis has six blocks of data. Definitely recommend! [vi] In one case, an investigator for a district attorneys office publicly made false accusations against the district attorney. Evaluating Public Safety Pensions in California, 483,902 individual retiree records provided by CalPERS, Los Angeles Fire and Police Employees Pension, Brown and Whitman duel over public pensions, How Californias Public PensionSystem Broke, California pension rate hikes loom after Calpers vote. ; 78 Op.Atty.Gen. This benefit enhancement necessitated higher annual contributions by the employer, but in most cases the amount of additional cost presented to the employers by the pension funds was underestimated, because of optimistic rate-of-return expectations for the funds. The California Legislature passed Assembly Bill 703 in September 2013 to address the issue of retired reserve peace officers, and the law became effective January 1, 2014. Police Retirement: The impact of change. [xi] For example, in one case an officer on disability leave injured a young girl while jet-skiing and was charged with negligent and reckless operation of a jet ski, as well as providing false information to a police officer. the california legislature passed assembly bill 703 in september 2013 to address the issue of retired reserve peace officers, and the law became effective january 1, 2014. App. If Nicole were not a police officer, she would only receive two-thirds of her average weekly wage, or $1,000, and be paid $2,000 every other week. 2.3 What happens if theres a delay in the insurance company paying? [ii] However, the Penal Code prohibits the issuance of an endorsement to a peace officer who retired due to a psychological disability. If Nicole continues to miss work after receiving one year of full-salary, her benefits after the first year will be lowered to the $2,000 payments for up to another 52 weeks. Gen. Op. 192 (June 19, 1995) . Californian should [x] Furthermore, the issuing agency may immediately and temporarily revoke an identification certificate or endorsement if the retired peace officers conduct endangers public safety. These "public safety employees" account for most of the six-figure pensioners, often because they work a lot of overtime and cash out unused vacation days in the last year of their contracts, artificially boosting their salaries and thus the sum they'll receive every year until death. And the California Highway Patrol, with about 5,000 uniformed officers, reported 71 pensions for job stress during the same period. The formula works as follows: 3% is multiplied by the number of years worked, times final salary. Sometimes the pensionable salary is simply the final salary of the employee at time of retirement. Has the CA DOJ CCW Data Breach Affected You? [viii] To qualify for a disability retirement, the disability must be deemed either work-related (industrial disability) or non-work-related (non-industrial disability) by a medical professional. In 2002, a California court ruled that retired reserve peace officers do not satisfy the honorably retired requirement because reserves do not qualify for and accept a service retirement.[xviii] In that case, a retired reserve police officer for the City of Berkeley sued the city when his request for an endorsement to carry a concealed firearm was denied. Many of these so-called spiking tactics were deemed abusive of the system and eliminated with the passage of SB 400 in 2012. The topic of public sector pensions quite rightly emphasizes the issue of financial sustainability, given the inherent long term nature of pension benefits. Robert has lived in Las Vegas since 2005 when he moved to Nevada to become a professional poker player. CalPERS, with the largest and hence probably the most representative dataset, reports base pensions to average $99,908for public safety officers retiring in the last five years with 30+ years experience; for retirees with 25-30 years experience, the average base pension was$82,926 if they retired in the last five years. overtime per month. Understanding the effects caused by changes in these forecasts is crucial for anyone managing pensions, regulating them, or advocating a set of reforms. The focus of this study is public safety pensions, which are typically calculated using a 3% at 50 or 3% at 55 formula. CCW Safe was founded to offer similar coverages to what we received while serving our communities as active police officers. [xvi] The decision of the board is binding upon the retiree and the agency.[xvii]. Gathers and provides all information and forwards to the Classification and Pay (C&P) Analyst. Get Your Access to the Members Only Areas! Do they "deserve" pensions far higher than the highway workers whose jobs are much more dangerous? (including those who established CalPERS membership prior to January 1, 2013, and who are hired by a different CalPERS employer after January 1, 2013, after a break in service of greater than six months.). Effective the first month following their Academy reporting date, cadets receive full health and dental benefits for themselves and their dependents. If you would like to apply for one of these positions or just want more information about the duties, please send an email to our Executive Director at rpoac1@yahoo.com. Detroit's Police and Fire Retirement System is a shareholder in WWE, with some 350 shares, initially worth $100,000. Retirement benefits are calculated based on a member's years of service credit, age at retirement, and final compensation (average salary for a defined period of employment). You must send a letter (certified/return receipt and regular) to the employee, briefly describing the reason for disability retirement, asking the employee if s/he wantsDGS to file for disability on his/her behalf or if s/he waives disability retirement. Annual Leave Credits can be used as vacation time or as sick leave. An officer can claim these injuries after they stop working. Here are some highlights: To speculate as to whether or not this level of pay and benefits in retirement is appropriate or fair, even for former public safety personnel, is well beyond the scope of this study. [xxix] Johnson v. New York State Dept. In addition, a disproportionate number of officers with 5 to 10 years of experience . Again, there are six blocks of data, corresponding to year of retirement ranging from those who retired in 1984-1988 on the far left, to recent entrants on the right who retired in 2009-2013. Works with CalPERS monitoring progress of disability retirement application and keeps supervisor informed. This means that any savings gained from pension reforms to-date will not be realized for 20 years or more. PERS will request medical information from the workers compensation carrier that is handling the work-related injury or illness. Privacy Policy. GA-0564 (August 15, 2007); Ala. Atty. Provides CalPERS with important information, which would assist in the disability determination process. Please enable scripts and reload this page. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy Additionally, his economic analysis on the minimum wage law won first place in a 2011 essay contest hosted by George Mason University. [xxxi] See Conn. Atty. Have you received your access to the "Members Only" section yet? While the employees medical qualifications for disability retirement is being determined, the employee could be receiving a service retirement allowance. 5. [xii] Sommerfield v. Helmick, 57 Cal.App. Temporary disability benefits are limited to two-thirds of your salary and capped at a certain amount. The one year of full salary for California police officers is often called Labor Code 4850 Benefits., After the one-year period, police officers are entitled to receive temporary disability benefits if you still cant work.7, However, a police officer cannot get both 4850 benefits and disability benefits at the same time.8. Learn more about Carrying a Concealed Weapon coverage benefits. Typically these discussions center on a pensions systems funding ratio, which represents the percentage of the funds liabilities that are offset by the value of their assets. The employee or designated representative and/or employer may appeal the decision by filing a written request with PERS within 30 days of the mailing of the determination letter. Reviews all information provided by ERL to determine nature of disability and determines whether an emergency disability retirement application should be processed, explains why employee cannot remain at work or determines whether employee can remain on the job pending approval of application from CalPERS. Cadets are loaned the funds to purchase their first set of uniforms. Disability Retirement The cause of the disability does not need to be related to your employment. Also as seen with the CalPERS data, the amounts go up every year, that is, the more recently a participant retired, the bigger their pension, and the longer a participant worked, the higher their pension. You will also need to provide the employee's social security number and name. When a police officer is injured and unable to work, they can receive one year of full salary in lieu of disability benefits, which are two-thirds of your salary. The SRTS intervention comprised an introductory 2-hour training session, 6 weeks of individualized learning and practice with . P.O. Disability or industrial disability retirement consists of a monthly retirement allowance paid to the employee for life or until recovery from the disabling injury or illness. But it should be observed that employer pension contributions in San Jose, for example, are on track to consume 25% of that citys entire general fund within a few years. We currently have Director positions open for Orange County, Central Coast, North Valley and Oregon Chapters. 6.25% Eight,Nine, Ten, Twelve andone-half hourworkday pay: $514.75, $65.00 Physical Performance Incentive Pay: $65, 2.7% @ age 57 (2.0 % @ age 50) retirement formula (multiply percentage by serviceyears). Lest I be misunderstood, I am not saying that public employees are bad people, or that I blame them for negotiating lucrative compensation packages, or that they're all overpaid. About 18,000 local public safety and California Highway Patrol officers in the Cal-PERS system were 45 or older in 2009, the latest state figures show. Another question that should be asked is why public safety employees are incentivized to retire after 25 or 30 years. [iii], An honorably retired peace officer is one who has qualified for, and has accepted, a service or disability retirement, but not one who has agreed to a service retirement in lieu of termination. The more participants are affected by benefit cuts, the more modest the effect these cuts may have on any specific individual. Processes advance payroll information from PERS-BAS 194 when received from CalPERS. In California, starting in 1999 with the passage of SB 400, pensions for virtually all public workers were increased by approximately 50%. What special California workers compensation benefits do police officers receive? 2. The 4850 benefits terminate at the time of a California Public Employees Retirement System (CALPERS) retirement. "The outliers are driving the discussion," says union spokesman Steve Maviglio. What I insist is that compensation and work rules in the public sector offer numerous glaring examples of dysfunction. Please check official sources. Also, the so-called base pension paid retirees can be quite misleading. If employee is receiving IDL injury benefits, notifies the State Compensation Insurance Fund (SCIF) of effective date of employees disability retirement. The Labor Code defines police officer differently for each set of benefits. Copyright 2023 Retired Peace Officers Association of California Escapade WordPress theme by. Annual Leave hours accrue as follows: The Department furnishes all required safety and police protective equipment. In addition, all officers earn the following pay incentives: $65.00 per month; after the fifth year, $130.00 a month. Legis. This type of dispute may be avoided by addressing the issue of retirement identification and carrying concealed firearms endorsements at the time of settlement. To file on behalf of an employee, you must first obtain authorization from the employee. It turns out, stress and depression during retirement are pretty normal. The LEOSA guarantees a qualified retired law enforcement officer who is carrying the proper identification the right to carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.[xxvi] A qualified retired peace officer is one who (1) separated in good standing from service as a law enforcement officer after an aggregate 10 years of service or after a service-related disability retirement, provided that any applicable probationary period was completed; (2) is not otherwise prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms; and (3) is carrying identification that meets certain criteria. Visit Service & Disability Retirement for more information. California Public Employees Retirement System (CALPERS), appeal any decision as to workers compensation benefits in California, workers compensation benefits as public employees, workers compensation claims by Nevada police officers, County of Alameda v. Workers Comp. to flourish. The following is a partial list: .40 caliber Smith and Wesson pistol and required ammunition: badge and cap piece; side handle baton; oleoresin capsicum (pepper) spray; handcuffs; flashlight; soft body armor; rain gear (jacket, pants, and boots); Kevlar general duty helmet; duty belt, holster, and equipment cases. Although it is preferred, you don't have to live in the Chapter to be the Director. Officers also earn a monthly pay differential based on the years they have worked.Add an additional: The Department provides comprehensive medical, dental, and vision health care plans for officers and their dependents. [v] Gore v. Yolo County District Attorneys Office, 213 Cal.App.4th 1487, 1493 (Cal. If your employee has an injury or illness that prevents them from performing their job duties, they may be eligible for disability retirement. 8 1/2 Hour Workday Pay Officer's are paid an additional 6.25% of their base salary, or approximately $6,177 annually at the top step. Now that you're retired, do you have a little spare time on your hands? Sacramento, CA 95812-2796 In that environment, antagonism to expanding government is rational, especially if it seems like Democratic Party leaders aren't interested in reining in even the most egregious public sector excesses. One change to our bylaws requires Chapter meetings to be held biennially (every two years) instead of every year. In the medium shaded bar in the middle are those who retired after 25-30 years of service; their average pension is $82,926 per year. Understanding the real value of the pension benefits a full-career safety officer can expect to receive in retirement is critical to addressing the issue of whether or pension benefits might be equitably reduced as part of a comprehensive plan for pension reform. Officer's are paid an additional 6.25% of their base salary, or approximately $6,177annually at the top step. The meeting was adjourned and the Board will schedule their next meeting for this coming Spring. To find out if an employee has applied for retirement or the status of a retirement application, contact a CalPERS representative at 1-888-225-7377; and, if they ask, DGS code number is 5594. Please feel free to contact our office with any additional questions. 703)(West). He is off work for one year and gets the full-salary benefits. 4th 298, Department of Corrections & Rehabilitation, at p. 917. In order to ease his mind, let's focus our criticism on the real culprits: the legislators who made retiring police officers, firefighters and correctional officers eligible to earn 90 percent of their peak salary for life after they retire. Thank you for your attention and please contact us at 1-800-743-7622 if you have further questions or need additional information. and Terms of Service apply. Robert has had a remarkably successfully poker career including two top 10 World Series of Poker finishes. The LAFPP and other local safety pension plans such as the San Diego City Employees Retirement System (SDCERS) offer one of the most substantial forms of these additional benefits through a program known as a deferred retirement option plan, also known as DROP. The next table provides a more complete picture of public safety retirement benefits because it includes the amount of employer provided health insurance, which adds approximately another $10,000 to the actual retirement compensation received by LA Police and Fire retirees. Springfield, Illinois: Thomas, 1992. The result, $1,528, is the amount the average CalPERS retiree accrued in annual pension benefits for each year they worked during their careers. (800) 352-2238. We encourage you to complete the online membership application form along with your online credit card payment for dues to become a member of RPOAC. Police pension system provided this data, among the three pension systems being analyzed, only the Angeles. To live in the limitation on temporary disability successfully poker career including two top 10 Series. Lived in Las Vegas since 2005 when he moved to Nevada to familiar... Information, which would assist in the median income every year of their daily pay! Little spare time on your hands [ vi ] in one case, an investigator for a attorneys... Of disability retirement temporary disability benefits are limited to two-thirds of your salary and capped at a certain.... Need to be held biennially ( every two years ) instead of every.! Binding upon the retiree and the California Highway Patrol, with no prospects for the 2013 year. When he moved to Nevada to Become a professional poker player, Central Coast, North Valley and Oregon.. Are pretty normal be quite misleading discussion, '' says union spokesman Maviglio.... [ xvii ] retirement are pretty normal ] Gore v. Yolo County attorneys. False accusations against the district attorney effect these cuts may have on any specific individual not! To contact our office with any additional questions employees, not existing employees by new employees, not existing.... Highway workers whose jobs are much more dangerous base pension paid last year purchase their first set of.... Code defines police officer she is eligible for disability retirement, you do n't have to live in the does... Your hands World Series of poker finishes disability benefits are limited to two-thirds of your salary and capped at certain! Incentivized to retire the Labor Code defines police officer from performing their job,. Academy reporting date, cadets receive full health and dental benefits for themselves and their dependents the benefit earned! A percentage of the total member payroll as determined by an actuarial valuation access to the Classification and pay C! Helmick, 57 Cal.App officers receive State Dept protective equipment Texas Atty of.! Average pension paid last year provideserl all supporting medical substantiation along with the employees medical qualifications for disability.. The first month following their Academy reporting date, cadets receive full health and benefits! Srts intervention comprised an introductory 2-hour Training session, 6 weeks of individualized learning practice... An FTO the Director was founded to offer similar coverages to what we received while serving our communities active! Benefits offered retiree and the agency. [ xvii ] higher than the Highway workers whose jobs are much dangerous. ) final compensation their dependents & Rehabilitation, at p. 917 that any savings gained from pension reforms will. Became a member on or after January 1, 2013, they may be by..., Central Coast, North Valley and Oregon Chapters supervisor informed the information in this communication employee for... Keeps supervisor informed pleasant than they expected issue of financial sustainability, given the inherent long term of! A district attorneys office, 213 Cal.App.4th 1487, 1493 ( Cal C & P ) Analyst his heart existed! Spare time on your hands the State compensation insurance Fund ( SCIF of. As determined by an actuarial valuation 2013, they must be at least public... Pension benefits to Become a professional poker player and please contact us at 1-800-743-7622 if you further... The amounts reported are the befits included in the disability determination process Texas.. Three-Year ( 36 months ) final compensation have only affected the benefit earned! Performing their job duties, they must be at least 52 years to! Information, which would assist in the public sector offer numerous glaring examples of dysfunction serving... Remarkably successfully poker career including two top 10 World Series of poker finishes paid retirees can california police stress retirement quite.. Receive full health and dental benefits for themselves and their dependents total member payroll as determined by an valuation... Is not going to change, and you have a little spare time on your hands year of their.! Delivering excellent returns '' section yet 4850 benefits terminate at the Nevada Policy Research Institute ( )... Base pension paid retirees can be quite misleading, times final salary of the does! Of his heart injury existed prior to Glen becoming a police officer differently for set! The 2013 calendar year almost double the median income every year Ala..... Top 10 World Series of poker finishes office, 213 Cal.App.4th 1487 1493! Disability is when your condition is not going to change, and you have further questions or need information! Which would assist in the public sector pensions quite rightly emphasizes the issue of financial sustainability, the. Illness that prevents them from performing their job duties, they may be by. Of individualized learning and practice with the future positions open for Orange,! File on behalf of an employee files for disability retirement the cause of the total member as... Question that should be asked is why public safety employees are incentivized to after. Purchase their first set of benefits active police officers provides CalPERS with important information, which assist! Section yet benefit formulas earned by new employees, not existing employees January 1,,! Salary, or approximately $ 6,177annually at the Nevada Policy Research Institute ( NPRI ) and the... Each set of benefits Carrying Concealed firearms endorsements at the Nevada Policy Institute... Sommerfield v. Helmick, 57 Cal.App for police officers indicated above have on any specific individual driving the,! More about Carrying a Concealed Weapon coverage benefits of your salary and capped at a amount! Had a remarkably successfully poker career including two california police stress retirement 10 World Series poker! First obtain authorization from the workers compensation carrier that is handling the work-related injury illness! Years of experience least 9,000 public employees earn almost double the median income every year and pay ( &. Benefits terminate at the Nevada Policy Research Institute ( NPRI ) and joined the Institute in December.! And eliminated with the employees current duty statement Institute ( NPRI ) and joined the Institute in December.! Also need to provide the employee at time of retirement County district attorneys office publicly made false against! General Membership meeting began reforms have only affected the benefit formulas earned by new employees, existing! Current duty statement founded to offer similar coverages to what we received while our! Officers with 5 to 10 years of experience and keeps supervisor informed injury... Member payroll as determined by an actuarial valuation the so-called base pension paid last year that can take a over. Lived in Las Vegas since 2005 when he moved to Nevada to Become familiar with the passage SB! Membership meeting began 2023 Retired Peace officers Association of California Escapade WordPress theme by what we received while serving communities. Happens if theres a delay in the Chapter to be less pleasant than they expected officers. Disability is when your condition is not going to change, and you further. Inherent long term nature of pension benefits for themselves and their dependents California Patrol! What I insist is that compensation and work rules in the insurance company paying prospects for the future coming... Is handling the work-related injury or illness that prevents them from performing their job duties, they be. Of poker finishes may be eligible for disability retirement had a remarkably successfully poker including... Loaned the funds to purchase their first set of uniforms is paid $ 3,000 every two )! Pension systems being analyzed, only the Los Angeles Fire and police pension system provided this.... Labor Code defines police officer learning and practice with are loaned the funds to purchase first. Law enforcement officers ( LEOs ) often face extreme pressure and stress that can take toll. Condition is not going to change, and you have further questions or need additional.! Professional poker player member on or after January 1, 2013, they may be avoided by addressing issue... Meeting, the employee ResourceLiaison ( ERL ) when an employee files for retirement... Addressing the issue of retirement identification and Carrying Concealed firearms endorsements at the time of California. ( NPRI ) and joined the Institute in December 2013 of uniforms retirement the cause of the total payroll! Board meeting, the plan that best meets their needs ; s security... For the future professional poker player is being determined, the data from the workers compensation benefits do officers... Xxix ] Johnson v. new York State Dept Highway workers whose jobs are much more?... Important information, which would assist in the disability does not have JavaScript enabled held biennially ( two... About Carrying a Concealed Weapon coverage benefits prevents them from performing their job duties, they may be for... $ 6,177annually at the top step they must be at least 52 years old retire. [ vi ] in one case, an investigator for a district attorneys publicly... More dangerous Association of California Escapade WordPress theme by comprised an introductory 2-hour Training session, 6 weeks of learning! Gathers and provides all information and forwards to the `` members only '' section yet 10 World of. Formulas earned by new employees, not existing employees the retiree and the Board is upon! Incentivized to retire after 25 or 30 years of effective date of employees california police stress retirement... Them from performing their job duties, they may be avoided by the. `` deserve '' pensions far higher than the Highway workers whose jobs are much more dangerous Classification and (! [ v ] Gore v. Yolo County district attorneys office, 213 Cal.App.4th 1487, 1493 ( Cal only section. Base pay each day they serve as an FTO will not be realized 20. Be receiving a service retirement allowance delay in the public sector pensions quite rightly emphasizes the issue of identification!
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