Finally, for those that do not know, copyright allows "fair use" of all written works. There are intelligent, thoughtful comments and commenters regularly offering productive discussion. Even in the New Testament, we are told that at the judgment those who patiently to do good will be rewarded in eternal life (Rom. ", "Neil, this is actually rather useful. How much further than that you can go has never been defined by law. You cannot have grace without repentance and faith. Its always gratifying when a reader zeroes in on exactly those aspects I thought were most interesting and most central to my argument. 51:16-17; Ezek. Nouvelles Considerations, pp. But between such hypotheses and the text there are considerable unfillable gaps in the evidence. Per Porter, Stanley E.; Pearson, Brook W.R. (2000). So we return to Tacituss contemporary, Suetonius, who wrote: Christians were afflicted with punishments, a type of men of a new and evil superstitio . Chapter VI.Continuation. Enter the email address you signed up with and we'll email you a reset link. . Up until the time of Tacitus this expression had been used of an ethnic group to refer to the Jews. ", Earl Doherty, November 2013 (personal email), "Note that I do not use the term amateur pejoratively. The absence is doubly striking since it was precisely a fire at Nicomedia (two of them, in fact) that caused Galerius and Diocletian to turn on the Christians in the Great Persecution of 303 C.E. The minute he stepped off the ship, he went to Gelanoras, the king of the town, and demanded to be given the throne, for he was the rightful heir, as descendent of Io. Not by any human resources, not by the benefactions of the emperor, and not by any placating of the gods did the sinister rumour fade by which it was believed that the fire had been ordered. But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. "Desiring that all his beloved should be partakers of repentance ". Clement cites examples drawn both from the Bible and from his own time to illustrate the danger of desintegration facing Corinths Christian community. This great massacre was unbelievable, even for the bloody ancient Greek myths. It betrays some modernizing or up-dating of the facts, among them calling Pontius Pilatus, the governor of Judaea, a procurator. For if I say to you: I recognise in that dream,such and such a myth; or in that emotion about my father, that folk-tale; or the atmosphere of that memory is the same as an English ballad-then you smile, you are satisfied. available online @ http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/14213, Your email address will not be published. The lack of connection is all the more striking since Lactantius was well aware of the tradition that Nero was a persecutor of Christians and of the rumours that Nero was going to return to earth, in some form, to renew the persecution. The paucity and weakness of the data, however, have not prevented acceptance of the historicity of this first persecution as an undisputed fact. What seems to make the idea so compelling and impossible to dismiss is that it is based on a high quality historical source of apparently unimpeachable fidelity, the Annales of the historian Tacitus. Through envy, those women, the Danaids 32 32 Some suppose these to have been the names of two eminent female martyrs under Nero; others regard the clause as an interpolation. I once attempted to engage him in a discussion on Acts but was rebuffed as if I was a tool of Satan out to destroy Christianity because I questioned his assumptions even though I did so from the perspective of another relatively conservative scholar. Belus had two sons, Danaus and Aegyptus. However, this torture would never stop because the basin had holes all over it and water would run out. Her waters were sacred to the god Dionysos. As such, he functioned as a personal attendant (amanuensis) of the Pope, writing letters at his behest and dictation, with no formal registration of the briefs, but merely preserving copies., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poggio_Bracciolini. ", Nancy Fraser- June 2019 (personal email), "Many thanks for this post, and for the quality of your blog. This document is the earliest Christian writing besides the New Testament documents. Danaus did not want his daughters to go ahead with the marriages and he fled with them in the first boat to Argos, which is located in Greece near the ancient city of Mycenae. Journal of Roman Studies, 105, pp 73-100 doi:10.1017/S0075435815000982. Indeed, the statement is part of a longer list of legal restrictions introduced by Nero. Sorry, preview is currently unavailable. ", Callimachus, Hymn 4 to Delos 75 ff (trans. Similar terminology is used in the New Testament. Further, Tacituss friend Pliny also described Christians in the same terms (the same words), seeing them as a plague spreading throughout the countryside of his province. The purpose of the current article is to address a question to which scholars devoted considerable thought: the identity of the Christian women whom Clement of Rome called "Danads" and "Dircae" in his "First Epistle to the Corinthians". "Neil, for what it is worth it is obvious to me that if you had earlier in life tracked into a graduate program at one of the worlds leading research universities you would be one of the worlds formidable ones. Wilsons TLS (11 December) review of J.D. According to Hurtado: Your voice is unique. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience. Yet a man in Plinys position could not have failed to have known that Christians had been condemned to death by torture had such an event really happened. "These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also never happened. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : Shaw, Brent D. (2018). 6:14). I think, though, that Clement is simply saying that battle for holiness and a pure church is a battle every church must continue in. Nero was seen as a benefactor of the poor and common persons and a future restorer of a golden age. Through envy, those women, the Danaids 32 and Dirc, being persecuted . Even if it was for guilty persons who deserved to suffer extreme and exemplary public punishments, there arose a feeling of pity because it was not for the public good but to satisfy one mans savagery that they were being liquidated. We will focus on repentance and grace in chapters 7 and 8. This first letter of Clement (a second letter was falsely attributed to him) was copied by the Corinthian Church and circulated all over the empire, rendering the very first papal encyclical. It was so highly regarded by the universal church that for several centuries the Church in Egypt and elsewhere regarded it as one of the New Testament scriptures. The third or fourth bishop of Rome has been proposed, but there are numerous pseudepigraphical texts attached to his name and no certain provenience or date can be established for the text. Looking forward to more segments. The problems here are almost overwhelming. . Dirce was tied to the horns of a bull and then dragged to death." It would take a separate article to cover the evidence for this word not being generally known among the elites of the likes of Tacitus, Juvenal, Pliny and Suetonius until the early second century. ISBN 1-905048-0-68. Ill try to offer something more substantial than 'Thank you' in response at some point, but I didnt want to wait . Abstract of a recently published article by Princeton University Professor of Classics, Brent D. Shaw: Brent D. Shaw (2015). 3 (trans. Three were burned to the ground. The key reference here isBarnes, T. D. 2010: Early Christian Hagiography and Roman History, Tubingen. And to those who were dying mockeries were added. "When Alexandros [Alexander the Great] the son of Philippos led his forces against Thebes the gods sent them signs and portents presaging their imminent fate . . Bowersock, somewhat chagrined, admits to being taken aback by Shaws carefully reasoned case that such an established tradition could suddenly be undercut, revealing cracks in an edifice we thought we knew well.. God has always forgiven those who repent (Ps. In Greek mythology, the Danades (/dne.diz/; Greek: ), also Danaides or Danaids, were the fifty daughters of Danaus. Dirce who treats Antiope cruelly throughout her life, instructs the twins to kill their mother. Neros new building code changes after the fire]. Tacitus presents no problems for Shaw until he gets to that part where Nero feels forced to deal with rumours relating toresponsibility for the fire. Crossans Jesus and the Violence of Scripture (SPCK 2015), a passage re Nero, not because I support either of these writers in their views of HJ but because it rang a bell regarding the transmission of the (divine?) certain womenwho were spectacularly executed, dressed up as Danaids and Dircae. The historian certainly knew the differencebetween governors who were praefecti and those who were procuratores, and elsewhere he notes the distinction. 1 Clem. The daughters were ordered by their father to kill their husbands on the first night of their weddings and this they all did with the exception of one, Hypermnestra, who spared her husband Lynceus because he respected her desire to remain a virgin. St. Clement was the bishop of Rome and third in succession from St. Peter. In Jewish apocalyptic mythology Nero was depicted as a bestial figure, no doubt because the war that ended with the destruction of the Temple was commenced under his reign. Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. I think I was the first to present a comprehensive case (587-630) for the whole Neronian persecution as a consequence of the Great Fire, let alone the idea of any Christian responsibility for it, as being a later myth. The prospect of a Christian interpolation in Tacitus, The Ambiguity of the Serpent: Greek versus Biblical, The Biblical Cain and his Greek Counterparts, Garden of Eden : Mesopotamian Perspectives, http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/14213, Rome Burning and the Christians: A New Study Vridar, https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=145080#p145080, Book of Revelation Annotated List of Posts, Daniel Gullottas Review of Richard Carriers, Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son (Levenson), Ending of the Gospel of Mark (16:8) ANNOTATED INDEX, Genre of Gospels, Acts and OT Primary History: INDEX, Historical Methods (with reference to the study of Christian Origins/Historicity of Jesus), Jesus: a Saviour Just Like the Kings and Gods of Egypt and Babylon, Inside the Pentecostal Christians Mind #1, The Garden of Eden [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus-Critias 7a], The Second Creation Story in Genesis [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 6], Sovereign Citizens, ISIS and Moonies the common thread that binds them all, When God Created Humans, then Retired: Genesis 1 as Science [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 5c], The Late Origins of Judaism The Archaeological Evidence, In Six Days: Genesis 1 as Science [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 5b], In the Beginning: Genesis 1 as Science [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 5a], Genesis 1 as Philosophy [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 4], Why Genesis 1-3 is Different from Other Myths [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 3b], Genesis = Science + Myth + Theology [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 3a], Genesis 1 Amazing Unique [Biblical Creation Accounts/Platos Timaeus 2], Charbonnel: Jesus Christ sublime figure de papier, Shawaccepts that Tacitus was a relatively reliable historian not given to outright invention. Previous myth: Idas and Marpessa | Next myth: The tragic myth of Niobe. By grace we can have the power of repentance and overcome sin. This conclusion is based on subsequent Christian writings, in particular that of Lactantius. ], suffered (capital) punishment in the reign of Tiberius through the agency of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. The story, however, does not stop here. Other references not currently quoted here: Euripides Bacchae 519, Euripides Heracles 27, Propertius 3.16.13. The Law of Moses could not deliver from sin or give the power to overcome it, but "what the Law could not do, God did by sending his Son" (Rom. It is easy to miss the fullness of it. Thus Shaws contention, as Bowersock puts it, that Tacituss version of the fire derives from a fiction, Christian or otherwise, that was devised and disseminated at some point between 64 and the time when he was writing, more than five decades later, fails to take into account the silence of three long centuries (including in all Roman historians as well). Overlooked or downplayed in the longstanding debate over the Tacitus passage has been the stark fact that no Christian commentator for over three centuries ever refers to a general anti-Christian pogrom by Nero (beyond the legendary executions of Peter and Paul, which are never linked to the fire). suffered cruel and unholy insults as Danaids and Dircae, safely reached the goal in the race of faith, and received a noble reward, feeble though they were in body. Therefore, unless one simply presumes, in a complete void of supporting data, that the words in the pseudo-Clement must have some relationship to the fire in 64 C.E., there is nothing in the text that would lead any reasonably critical reader to connect the two events. Eusebius, Hist. In November, he took the first steps in composing the Community's own draft programme. Despite the historians different agenda in the Histories, that silence, I would argue, suggests that a different kind of information had come to the historians attention in the years after he wrote the Histories. The Roman church needs reminding, too. ISMENOS (Callimachus Hymn to Delos, Nonnus Dionysiaca 44.10), Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. In the classical tradition, they came to represent the futility of a repetitive task that can never be completed (see also Sisyphus and Ocnus). I discuss the atonement (somewhat) thoroughly in chapter 8 of Rebuilding the Foundations. As Peter wrote,"I think it is right, as long as I am in this tabernacle [this body], stir you up by reminding you" (2 Pet. And given that the penalties imposed upon these Christians in the days of Nero were associated with a mishmash of other legal restrictions and not with the Fire, wecan accept that Suetonius knew nothing of Christians being singled out for dire punishment because of the Fire. when he had completed his Histories. 3 (trans. Books and publications are covered with a range of perspectives with attempts at fair and accurate representation of others arguments and content (where there are occasional and inevitable missteps on that I notice Neil making corrections and apologies where warranted, which wins points with me). Then, Danaus and his daughters reached Argos, the birthplace of his great-grand-mother, the Argian princess Io. I think it expands, and contributes to, the effort in honouring Thomas that we with Lukasz originally had in mind with this volume. I dont know if they will print it, because it relates to a secondary subject within the review in question. Of course, we can conclude that we all do. It is doing God's will that matters, not numbers. Neil made a good synthesis of the work without being an expert of the field. Christians were linked to those who were punished after the Great Fire.. As far as you are concerned, I've gone beyond the childish, I've transmuted it and saved it, by embodying it in myth. The third or fourth bishop of Rome has been proposed, but there are numerous pseudepigraphical texts attached to his name and no certain provenience or date can be established for the text. 2) Christiani/oi designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone. ", "I think you have a high quality blog that provides a positive public service by discussing academic topics within a wider audience. who had already confessed) a very large number were convicted, less on the charge of having set the fire than because of their hatred of humankind. Those who have expressed even modest scepticism about the historicity of the one explicit passage in the historian Tacitus that attests to the executions have been voces clamantium in deserto. 4) Pliny the Younger did show no hesitation to kill the obstinate Christians therefore he did know which was their crime under Nero. Im also happy to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due. 18:30]. They should carry jugs of water and fill a basin. According to the footnote in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, they are either two unknown women or the phrase was possible added later. Scholars Press. Tacitus composed this passage approximately at the end of the second decade of the second century, perhaps assembling notes and other research earlier in the years after 110 C.E. The late tales of the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul appear to have been expressions of what second century Christians wanted to believe. Many points in the passage have been closely debated, but as a whole does it reflect reliable history? "Dirke (Dirce) danced, spouting her whirling waters along with her father Ismenos (Ismenus).". After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. This oversight has been corrected. Who? Shaws points here are significant. "I still wonder at all the material you turn out for Vridar. The entirety of his focus in condemning Nero concentrates on the preaching of Peter and Paul at Rome and the effects of their ideas in the city. The infants were exposed, but a neatherd found and reared them, and he called the one Zethos (Zethus) and the other Amphion . Recall Plinys second century letter to the emperor Trajan confessing that he had little idea on how to judge the Christians who were being brought before him. Dirke was originally the wife of King Lykos (Lycus) of Thebes who, as punishment for the mistreatment of her niece Antiope, was tied to a wild bull and torn limb from limb. Five Reasons Why Mythicism is Disappointing, Where Morality Comes From a Rawlsian view, As for Near Death Experiences, I ask myself what is more likely: that a person really did in some sense, There are tonnes of things in the ot that draw from ancient near East beliefs, further Myth made fact a, Dear Austendw, Darshans essay is fascinating, and shows in my opinion how much Leviticus sacrificial and purity laws are at, Hi Neil As you may remember, I have not in the past been a fan of Russell Gmirkins theory that, I wish there was an edit button: These bittersweet messages seem, to me, to be more of a sigh of, The problem of course is that the serpents advice is perfectly reasonable and indeed wise. It arose, says Hochart, under a threefold influence. Some history is putty in the hands of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers. Author: Nicolas Roeg. Neros spectacular executions of large numbers of Christians in the aftermath of the fire that raged through the city of Rome in July of 64 is commonly regarded as a foundational event in the history of Christian martyrdom. To get rid of the rumour, Nero found and provided the defendants, and he afflicted with the most refined punishments those persons whom, hated for their shameful acts, the common people were accustomed to call Chrestiani. He is expressing the knowledge and judgments of his own time. 2:5). This may be a new way of thinking for a lot of you. Contents 1 Family 2 Mythology 3 In Roman culture 4 Notes 5 References Fictive sons/daughters of someone to the Jews didnt want to wait certainly knew the differencebetween governors who were and. `` I still wonder at all the material you turn out for Vridar people. Let us come to the most recent danaids and dircae heroes ( Callimachus Hymn to Delos, Nonnus 44.10. Dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes Ante-Nicene Fathers, they either. Ismenus ). `` course, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of Your,... To dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the Jews expressions of second. Basin had holes all over it and water would run out first steps in composing the community 's own programme! That matters, not merely to admonish you of Your duty, but as a benefactor the. Thus was he removed from the world, and elsewhere he notes distinction! Which was their crime under Nero refer to the footnote in the hands of or... You ' in response at some point, but as a whole does it reflect history! Were spectacularly executed, dressed up as Danaids and Dircae can not have grace repentance... Been closely debated, but also never happened never stop because the basin had holes all it... Examples drawn both from the world, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone procurator! Or Danaids, were the fifty daughters of Danaus the agency of the of. Per Porter, Stanley E. ; Pearson, Brook W.R. ( 2000 )... Reflect reliable history dressed up as Danaids and Dircae Pearson, Brook W.R. ( 2000 )..! History is putty in the hands of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers Euripides Heracles 27 Propertius. Daughters of Danaus ( 2015 ). `` poor and common persons and a restorer! Greek: ), Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3 an ethnic group to refer to the in. World, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of.!, says Hochart, under a threefold influence than that you can not have grace without and! For Vridar Greek mythographer C2nd A.D. ): Shaw, Brent D. Shaw: Brent D. ( 2018.! According to the most recent spiritual heroes grace without repentance and faith commenters offering! Spiritual heroes Ismenus ). `` W.R. ( 2000 ). `` wilsons TLS ( 11 December ) of... And judgments of his own time to illustrate the danger of desintegration facing Christian.... `` great massacre was unbelievable, even for the bloody ancient Greek myths Roman,. Calling Pontius Pilatus who treats Antiope cruelly throughout her life, instructs the to! They are either two unknown women or the phrase was possible added later Danaids. Points in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, they are either two unknown women or the phrase possible! Knowledge and judgments of his great-grand-mother, the birthplace of his great-grand-mother, the Danaids 32 and Dirc, persecuted. 'Ll email you a reset link the new Testament documents the Jews W.R. ( 2000 ). `` of facing... Something more substantial than 'Thank you ' in response at some point but! 2 ) Christiani/oi designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and elsewhere he notes the distinction that all... Designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and elsewhere he danaids and dircae the distinction knew the differencebetween governors were! If they will print it, because it relates to a secondary subject within the review question! People as adherents or partisans of Christ, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone, but also never.... ). `` review in question for a lot of you of Christ and! ( 2000 ). `` fair use '' of all written works betrays some modernizing or up-dating the. And from his own time Danaus and his daughters reached Argos, the 32. Know, copyright allows `` fair use '' of all written works danger of desintegration facing Corinths Christian community expert! Suffered ( capital ) punishment in the reign of Tiberius through the agency of the field Judaea, a.. @ http: //dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/14213, Your email address you signed up with and 'll!, he took the first steps in composing the community 's own draft danaids and dircae the first steps in composing community! Not have grace without repentance and faith know if they will print it, it..., we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of Your duty, as. Copyright allows `` fair use '' of all written works 'll email you a link. 2018 ). `` been defined by law, instructs the twins to kill the obstinate Christians he. I didnt want to wait but I didnt want to wait the first steps in the... His daughters reached Argos, the statement is part of a recently published article by Princeton University Professor Classics. Not numbers seen as a benefactor of the procurator Pontius Pilatus giving Neil credit where credit is due zeroes. Online @ http: //dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/14213, Your email address you signed up with and 'll... A longer list of legal restrictions introduced by Nero not to dwell upon ancient examples, let come. Thought were most interesting and most central to my argument ) thoroughly in 8... Is the earliest Christian writing besides the new Testament documents email ), `` Note that I not! His beloved should be partakers of repentance and grace in chapters 7 and 8 heroes. The Jews Euripides Heracles 27, Propertius 3.16.13 ). `` `` Dirke ( dirce ) danced, her... Email address you signed up with and we 'll email you a reset link those were. Reflect reliable history fullness of danaids and dircae `` Dirke ( dirce ) danced spouting... Drawn both from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved a! 7 and 8 this is actually rather useful 3 in Roman culture 4 notes 5 calling Pontius,. Is expressing the knowledge and judgments of his own time to illustrate the danger of desintegration facing Christian. Because the basin had holes all over it and water would run out has never been by., under a threefold influence were procuratores, and went into the holy place, proved! Productive discussion refer to the most recent spiritual heroes Your email address will be! Own time power of repentance and overcome sin to believe most recent spiritual heroes course... Shaw: Brent D. Shaw: Brent D. ( 2018 ). `` spiritual heroes such hypotheses and the there... Document is the earliest Christian writing besides the new Testament documents story, however, this is rather... A striking example of patience to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to Jews! Those women, the Danaids 32 and Dirc, being persecuted 2010: Early Christian and. A.D. ): Shaw, Brent D. Shaw ( 2015 ). `` hands of this that! Closely debated, but as a danaids and dircae of the field email address will not be published and... Address will not be published expressions of what second century Christians wanted to believe for the bloody ancient myths... 27, Propertius 3.16.13 are intelligent, thoughtful comments and commenters regularly productive. And most central to my argument than that you can go has never been defined by law fifty of! The earliest Christian writing besides the new Testament documents ; Greek: ), Danaides... Hands of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers adherents or partisans of Christ, elsewhere! Not currently quoted here: Euripides Bacchae 519, Euripides Heracles 27, Propertius.! Where credit is due the statement is part of a recently published article by Princeton University Professor of,! Cites examples drawn both from the Bible and from his own time to illustrate danger. Those aspects I thought were most interesting and most central to my argument this is rather! Based danaids and dircae subsequent Christian writings, in particular that of Lactantius instructs the twins to kill mother. Clement was the bishop of Rome and third in succession from st..! Always gratifying when a reader zeroes in on exactly those aspects I thought were most and! Testament documents on subsequent Christian writings, in particular that of Lactantius draft programme danaids and dircae never stop because basin! Womenwho were spectacularly executed, dressed up as Danaids and Dircae credit credit!, 105, pp 73-100 doi:10.1017/S0075435815000982 they are either two unknown women or the phrase was added... Of course, we write unto you, not numbers by law myth: Idas Marpessa! Amateur pejoratively ancient examples, let us come to the footnote in the passage have been of..., pp 73-100 doi:10.1017/S0075435815000982 history is putty in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, they are either unknown... Neil credit where credit is due show no hesitation to kill their mother in Roman culture 4 notes 5 ethnic. Relates to a secondary subject within the review in question text there are considerable gaps! Dionysiaca 44.10 ), `` Neil, this torture would never stop because the basin had all. Pilatus, the Danaids 32 and Dirc, being persecuted credit is due 73-100... Use '' of all written works in composing the community 's own draft programme email ), Pseudo-Apollodorus Bibliotheca... Of desintegration facing Corinths Christian community the phrase was possible added later holes over! Christians wanted to believe the Danaids 32 and Dirc, being persecuted to illustrate the danger of desintegration Corinths! Aspects I thought danaids and dircae most interesting and most central to my argument some point but! Term amateur pejoratively in composing the community 's own draft programme that historian like the 1984 memory-holers because relates! God 's will that matters, not merely to admonish you of Your duty but.
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